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A Conversation with Sean Baker (ANORA)

Few American filmmakers have shown as consistent a dedication to portraying marginalized communities with dignity and complexity as Sean Baker. From his early collaboration with Shih-Ching Tsou on 2004’s Take Out which intimately captured the day-in-the-life of an undocumented Chinese delivery worker in New York, through 2008’s Prince of Broadway following a street hustler in Manhattan’s wholesale district, to 2012’s Starlet exploring an unlikely friendship between a young adult film actress and an elderly widow, Baker has consistently sought out stories from society’s margins. His profile rose further with the groundbreaking iPhone-shot Tangerine following transgender sex workers in Los Angeles, the vibrant portrayal of struggling families on Disney World’s periphery in The Florida Project and his provocative character study Red Rocket. His latest film, Anora, starring Mikey Madison as a sex worker who becomes romantically entangled with a Russian oligarch’s son, continues his exploration of class dynamics. The film, which took home the Palme d’Or at the 2024 Cannes Film Festival, demonstrates Baker’s ongoing commitment to telling stories that challenge audiences while maintaining his signature empathetic and hilarious touch. Anora is one of the best movies of the year, truly recommendable to all, and I implore everyone to seek it out in a theater NOW! It was so great to speak with Sean in the following conversation edited for length and clarity.

Hammer To Nail: Location is always so essential to your films. Here the setting is Brighton Beach. Why this location, and generally, when did the inception of this story begin?

Sean Baker: There have been other films set in Brighton Beach. James Grey, Aronofsky, Walter Hill etc. I shot a short Khaite fashion film in Coney Island that sparked the desire to shoot in that area. It was a fashion film I made over Covid that was an homage to The Warriors.

When I brought it up to Walter he said, “Well, it’s not hallowed ground man,” hahaha. I was trying to find other ways to shoot it. I think that was the real inspiration to get back there. Karren Karagulian, who plays Toros, in the film, and I have been trying to make this film for a long time. We did not have the actual plot of Anora until after Red Rocket. That is when we finally figured out the hook: young sex worker marries the son of a Russian Oligarch. Before that, it was just an idea of telling a story in the Coney Island/Brighton beach area in the Russian-American community because he has a connection to it. He is Armenian-American, but married to a Russian-American. Lana, his wife, actually plays his wife in the church scene! He knew a lot of stories from that world and that is how it came about

HTN: Casting is also so essential to your films. I have heard the story of how Mikey got cast, but I am very curious about the Armenian casting process. How did this work?

SB: Karren has been in all of my films. That was automatic. He was precast. He suggested Vache [Tovmasyan]. He was one of the last people cast. Vache happens to be Armenia’s number one comedian. He is their Chappelle. I am so happy that he was in America and had a working visa at the time. He brought such wonderful comedic timing to the role. He really brings celebrity to the film as well. LA has a big Armenian community. I’ll go to a gas station and say, “Hey I just worked with Vache.” They are always in awe.

Yura [Borisov] came after I saw the movie Compartment No. 6. I thought he gave a wonderful performance in that film. “Diamond,”played by Lindsey Normington, I met in LA. She is an actor/dancer and approached me at a screening. We quickly bonded and I thought she would be great!

HTN: The film experiences a tonal shift during the sequence she (Ani) is tied up. What were you and [Cinematographer] Drew Daniels hoping to achieve with the look of each of these sections?

SB: We definitely wanted the sections to be distinctive and yet, part of a whole. The wonderful thing about working with Drew is that we were on the same page intuitively about how to cover certain scenes. The movement of the camera and the tools being used. Would the shot be a dolly, handheld, steadicam etc. We always did what was best for the scene. We shot in chronological order as much as possible. I was really wearing my editing hat while directing. I was feeling it out and finding how to play with the energies of the film.

In terms of the look itself, Drew and I love the cinema of the 70s. World Cinema, not just US cinema. Technology met aesthetic and bold content. It all came together in the 70s. I said to Drew, “I know this is a film that takes place in 2019, but I want it to look like it was shot in 1974.” So we shot on film, used vintage Lomo lenses, and broke all the rules of film school.

HTN: Looking at that sequence where she is tied up. it unfolds and escalates in such an entertaining way, what were the keys to this sequence for you and when in the writing process did this sequence come to you?

 SB: It came to me very early on. I knew that something was going to keep her captive. In the first draft of the screenplay, I knew it would play out in real time. That is a whole different approach. When you know it is playing out in real time, there is no room for error continuity wise. Coverage has to be thought of in a different way. You really have to over cover just in case something goes wrong. It has to be shot listed.

Mikey Madison in ANORA

I scripted this scene, but once we got to the mansion, I had to rework it for the space. That is always interesting. Even when we were shooting, every morning I would come in and make slight adjustments in the screenplay. Sometimes it was because of hiccups we were hitting, other times it was just about logic. I walked on set early in the morning on the second day of shooting the big sequence and I said, “Guys, I totally reworked it. I shifted the order of Karren’s Dialogue!” I remember the look of fear both Karren and Drew gave me at that moment. I had to assure them that it was ok, we had time and this was part of the process. That would not be allowed if this was a studio film, or even a small studio film. I would have to go to the WGA and get permission. That is why these films have to be done like this. The scene was heavily scripted, down to every word, but there had to be massaging along the way to truly nail it. We were organically finding it.

Mikey is doing her own stunts with Yuriy. We had a stunt coordinator come in and they walked through the scenes in slow motion. You really do not know what it is going to be until you do that first take. That was very exhilarating. You can see the actors’ faces as all of this incredible physicality is happening.

We scheduled to shoot the scene for 6 days, however, it wound up taking 8. Drew and my gaffer Chris Hill had to be on top of the weather changes as well. Overall, I am really happy with how it turned out. It was exactly what I was hoping for.

HTN: It is such a great moment! Another sequence I adore, and see as a masterclass of directing chaos is the return to the strip club.  Anora is doing everything she can to communicate to Ivan, and get an answer out of him while Diamond [Lindsey Normington] is on a rampage basically trying to say “I TOLD YOU SO.” It’s almost as if the second Anora punches her in the face, the audience would have done the same. You build that tension and anxiety so well. Talk about your thinking behind this sequence?

SB: I knew that that would be the big confrontation and a lot would be going on there. The audience is seeing Ivan for the first time in about 30 minutes. The audience is experiencing that primarily through the eyes of Anora. I had to put the audience through that very confused and lost feeling that Anora was experiencing in this desperate moment. She feels all alone. Her friend Lulu is there, but other than that she has no support. I wanted to show all these different personalities coming at Anora and her trying to figure out the moment.

The music cues were very important. That DMX music cue was actually in the script. We ran out of time of course, so that fight scene was pretty improvised. We covered it with 2 cameras and we only had a few hours to pull it off. Our stunt coordinator talked with Mikey and Lindsey and felt secure enough for them to just go at it. It was truly insane.

I am glad you brought up that moment where the audience would probably punch Diamond at the same time, because that was important for me to get across. It is the one moment in which there is lateral violence in the film. If you think about it, all the previous violence is people punching down. Anora at this moment is lashing out at a fellow sex-worker and punching laterally. This is meant to show her status/level.

HTN: I love the scene where Yura googles Anora and, not caring about what it actually means, she says “We don’t care about names in America.” Talk about your thinking behind this sequence and the general theme of miscommunication/the history behind her name throughout the film.

SB: Being a sex-worker she has to have a pseudonym for privacy and safety purposes. It is also the fact that she is first-generation and entirely removed from her culture. This stems from friends of mine who are first-generation. Their parents or grandparents were very ingrained in their motherland’s culture. There was always this conscious choice to Americanize themselves in order to fit in more. There is this rejection of the name Anora because she never found it to be American enough. We explored that more in the script, ultimately it was edited out, but there was more of that going on where she did not like her name because it did not make her feel like the new yorker she knows she is. That scene allowed me to define their names and it made for good back and forth. It is the only moment where they are actually communicating.

HTN: With Red Rocket and now Anora you have directed two powerhouse performances in a row. As a director are you hands on with your actors giving lots of advice through preparation and on set? I can’t imagine there are that many takes to experiment given its shot on film.

 SB: To tell you the truth, my ratio on film versus digital is the same. I usually do around 8 takes! I have been very lucky with my casts. They have been incredible to work with and extremely talented. I would say most of it is me having a lot of faith in them and them delivering hahaha!

People will ask me, “How did I know Mikey would be able to do this from her performances in Once Upon A Time…In Hollywood & Scream?” She did show a lot of range, but, when I met her, she was very reserved and shy. That gave me even more confidence because it proved she was not typecast. There is a lot that goes into that process.

My relationship with the stars is like any other actor director relationship. We do a lot of rehearsal. I get to do a lot of adjustments there. For the most part, Simon and Mikey really understood their characters. We created backstories and made epilogues for these characters. Even though we would never tell the audience, it was good to put it in their heads. Mikey was doing consulting with sex-workers, so she had a lot to pull from.  For me, as the director, when we are on set I am just making those little adjustments.

******SPOILER******

 

HTN: The ending is unforgettable. All the stuff at the airport and place of annulment is fascinating, but I am talking about these final moments in the car with Igor. Was this always the ending and why was it important to you to end on this sobering note?

SB: Yes, it was always the ending. The other day, my producer, Alex Coco, showed me the first treatment that we used for our meeting with Mikey. The ending was in there. It was quite detailed with the snow building up on the window, the timing of the windshield wipers, all of that. It was very much a part of the film from the beginning. With this film, and I started to do this with Red Rocket, I wanted to do a rollercoaster through genres and tones. In this one I felt confident enough that I felt some of these scenes could be elevated above reality, especially since we were leaning into comedy. It was ok, as long as there were no cartoonish moments. I could take the audience to unrealistic places as long as I brought them back to this sobering, raw, grounded reality at the end. That was really it. I knew I had to get us to a place that almost makes you question why you were laughing earlier in the film?

ANORA castmates with Sean Baker at Cannes

Something like the courtroom scene. That is pretty sitcom level stuff. In reality, they would be held in contempt of court within 30 seconds. Instead I let it play out in this very big, fun and farcical way. Everybody understood the tonal shifts. Everybody was so plugged in and understood their characters/the story so well. There was very little communication about that. They all knew to never push it too far. There was an important threshold there.

Regarding the ending, it was very stressful. I knew I had to nail it. Mikey was extremely stressed as well. Yura never showed how stressed he was. What he did for Mikey was incredible. He was really there for her. He made her as comfortable as possible and made sure everything was physically going to move correctly. He was in charge, because of his positioning, of how she was going to be photographed in the end. On an emotional level he was very supportive as well. Mikey has to cry in that last moment and it’s a big deal. There is so much going on behind the camera technically. There were cues, the snow had to be building up, there was a lot going on.

Nights of Cabiria was a huge influence on the film. At the end, Julietta has one single tear that comes down her face. I’m in the backseat of the car with a monitor just praying this scene comes together. The camera starts to push in, Mikey starts to cry and I look up over the seat to see that she does a single tear. I thought, “Oh my god! We just had an unintentional hat tip to the film that inspired this movie!” It was a serendipitous moment and that was when I knew we had it!

HTN: Awesome Sean! Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I am such a big fan of your movies and so is our publication!

 SB: You guys have been so supportive since way back with Take Out so thank you so much!

HTN: I will be telling all my friends to go see Anora this week!

 SB: Thank you!

– Jack Schenker (@YUNGOCUPOTIS)

 

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Jack Schenker is based in Los Angeles, CA. He has worked in the film industry for 5 years at various companies including Mighty Engine, Film Hub, and Grandview. Jack continues to write for Hammer to Nail, conducting interviews with prominent industry members including Steve James, Riley Keough, Christian Petzold, and Ira Sachs. His dream is to one day write and direct a horror film based on the work of Nicolas Winding Refn and Dario Argento. He directed his first short film this year titled Profondo. Jack's favorite filmmakers include Werner Herzog, Wim Wenders, Denis Villeneuve, Bong Joon Ho, David Lean, John Carpenter, Ari Aster, Jordan Peele, and Robert Altman to name a few. Look out for Jack on Twitter (aka X). You can see the extent of Jack's film knowledge on Letterboxd, where he has written over 1000 reviews and logged over 1600 films.

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