A Conversation with Pasqual Gutierrez & Ben Mullinkosson (SERIOUS PEOPLE)

Doppelgangers would hardly be considered fresh in cinema nowadays if one would look back at both indies and classics such as Duncan Jones’ Moon, Spike Jonze’s Adaptation, and even Chaplin’s The Great Dictator. But writer-directors Pasqual Gutierrez and Ben Mullinkosson apply this concept to today’s demanding, ever-changing film industry in the duo’s film Serious People, which is one of the funniest films of this year’s Sundance. This experimental, minimalist comedy puts fiction and reality side by side to authentic, hilarious, and expertly cringeworthy effects.
Based on co-director Gutierrez’s real-life experiences, he stars as a version of himself: a music video director working in a duo alongside Raul, played by his real-life creative partner Raul Sanchez. As he and his partner Christine (Gutierrez’s real-life wife and fellow director Christine Yuan) are preparing for the arrival of their baby, he gets an offer to direct a Drake music video that he feels he can’t turn down. As a way to have his cake and eat it too, he conducts an ill-advised scheme to find a double to stand in for him on set while he gets to be present for Christine in her final trimester. He finds the “perfect” double in the form of Miguel (Miguel Huerta), who he hires much to Raul’s reluctance. He may perfectly resemble Pasqual, but he certainly doesn’t behave like him. As Miguel’s boisterous and filterless antics threaten Pasqual’s plans, the latter struggles to find a balance between his professional aspirations and the obligations of approaching parenthood.
I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with the duo of Gutierrez and Mullinkosson – who themselves would make the perfect doubles for one another – on the ground in Park City where they talked about their decade-long friendship and what unfolded in the film’s year-long journey from conception to Sundance.
Hammer To Nail: This film really blurs the lines between narrative and nonfiction. Basic question, but what was the basis for the film and what was the screenwriting process like?
Pasqual Gutierrez: So Ben and I are obviously very good friends. We went to Chapman University Film School together. After that, we lived together at this house we called Stacks. It was a house for filmmakers. We talked a lot about making a film of this nature that was a hybridization between fiction and nonfiction. We were really into the idea of working with our friends, who are also fellow creatives. But nothing ever really came about it. It was in the atmosphere for both of us, and this was years ago. You fast forward a decade: Ben’s living in China and I’m in L.A. working as a part of Cliqua, the music video directing duo alongside Raul Sanchez. My wife [Christine] is pregnant, and I’m having a lot of anxiety at the time just about the work/life balance and what that’s going to be like. I asked myself like “How am I going to manage it?” I was the first of my entire friend group to be an expectant father. I didn’t have anyone to bounce off of. During the second trimester, I had this really extremely vivid dream that was the premise of this film. In this dream, I cast this doppelgänger who looked like me to basically take over my work duties so that I could be more present with Christine. It was an intense dream and I can still remember so much about it. I woke up covered in sweat, and I wrote it down, called Ben on WhatsApp, and tried to get him to come back from China. So that’s how it started.
Ben Mullinkosson: I think for Pasqual, he was going into fatherhood he was kind of like “This is my last chance to make a feature film.” If we don’t do it now, he’s going to be a dad and there’s never gonna be a time to do it. We had five months from when he had his dream to when Christine gave birth to write the script and shoot the film. So we just started passing a Google Doc back and forth from when I was in Chengdu, China, and then to Pasqual in L.A. Three months later, I went back to L.A. and we started production. Pasqual started only a couple of days prior. We wanted to work together in this capacity for a long time and it was cool! I think it was the same with Teddy [Lee] and Laurel [Thomson] our producers, as well as some of the other people on our team. We were all like “Okay, we gotta make something before Pasqual becomes a dad.” We just went for it and even at the time, we dreamed of coming to Sundance. Pasqual and I worked at Slamdance on the TV team 10 years ago but we never had the chance to go to Sundance until now. So it’s a really big honor for us to be here.
HtN: How are you both feeling about the premiere?
Pasqual Gutierrez: I’m so hyped up. I think it goes back to your first question about blending fiction and nonfiction. It’s obviously a comedy on the surface. It’s gonna be positioned as a fiction film, but there are very real personal elements in the film. I am playing a version of myself. My wife is a version of herself. All of us are going by our real names in the film. So these are real relationships with real people that are being extrapolated and stylized. There’s a slightly theatrical quality to them at times. But, it’s all rooted in reality. I think because of that, it feels like such a family affair of a film. We’re just sharing the stage with so many other great filmmakers, stars, and big casts. It’s such an accomplishment to be here and we’re super-stoked. It feels just so authentically us, just exploring. I don’t have any regrets or hesitations about it. I think some people are gonna love it and some people might not like it. It might not be for them, but that’s fine.
HtN: You went with your gut and you’re here now. That means something.
Pasqual Gutierrez: Absolutely!
HtN: How did you come across Miguel Huerta? He’s such a riot in this film.
Pasqual Gutierrez: Yes, thank you. I’ll tell him you said that. (Laughs) Miguel was also traditionally not an actor. He had aspirations to be an actor. When Raul and I were working as the duo Cliqua, we made a short film about a year and a half before making Serious People. It was a super-stylized fiction film and we cast Miguel in that one. It was a street casting and it was his first time acting. When we were developing Serious People, there was a huge conversation about who the doppelgänger was going to be. At one point, Ben was going to do it. And it was funny because Raul and I also look similar, a lot of people think we’re brothers. We’ve been marketed as brothers before. (Laughs) So Miguel was always just floating around and I was very excited to present this opportunity to him because he’s such a hard-working guy. Even though he didn’t have the experience, he was just so down for it. He would just show up two hours early, we would talk to him a bunch, and he would just get hyped. So that’s Miguel’s story there.

Pasqual Gutierrez
HtN: There’s something about his performance that’s so comical, yet feels genuine at the same time. Was he also playing a version of himself in the film?
Pasqual Gutierrez: Definitely. I would say he was playing an extreme version of himself. That was the idea. We hadn’t known Miguel for long, and he was such an integrated part of this friend group that’s been around 10+ years or whatever. So in the film, there’s this disruption that you feel when Miguel comes into the scene with Raul and myself. He comes into this more intimate friend group that we really wanted to lean into in order to create tension, awkwardness, and hilarity.
HtN: I love that shot where all the auditioning doubles are gathered in that one waiting room. How did you assemble that entire group of lookalikes?
Ben Mullinkosson: So all of them were cast. Everyone on the team was cast. I think some of them auditioned for music videos, commercials, and films that Pasqual has made before. I remember in the audition, he was going “Hey, what’s up? I remember you.” I was in that scene too, by the way. That’s my cameo. In the bottom corner, so look out for me!
HtN: Easter egg!
Ben Mullinkosson: (Laughs) It was very cool. And not everyone had a mustache, so we had to put on some fake ones. I think that’s another interesting element in the mixture of documentary and fiction because I come from a documentary background. When we first talked about this, we were gonna approach this as an observational film where we’re hanging out and filming these scenes as they’re actually happening. But because of the timeline of the pregnancy, we had to push everything into a specific fictional timeline. We had to film certain dramatic moments at certain times based on everyone’s schedule. So it kind of became this fiction film, but we’re not writing dialogue. In our script, there’s very loose dialogue but nothing was set in stone. Then everyone is improvising and playing their own roles. I think another thing that Pasqual was saying too was that this kind of became a form of therapy because there are certain moments where Raul and Pasqual have to argue in the film. So they’re talking about this narrative in the film, but it’s almost a way of expressing how they feel about their relationship, their dynamic, and as Pascual comes into fatherhood how things might change in their relationship. Same with Christine as they’re going into this new stage in their lives. I think she was actually frustrated that we were spending so much time working on this film versus Pasqual being present and nesting. So when they have this moment of tension, it’s almost like a way of expressing their feelings behind it.
HtN: I was fascinated by how almost every shot is still and wide. It’s almost like you’re watching CCTV footage. In a way, it adds to the authenticity of the roles because it gives everyone the space to feel more natural. Talk about that creative decision.
Ben Mullinkosson: I think Pasqual and I were inspired by the framing in Roy Andersson’s films. Obviously, we didn’t have the resources for production design or creating these color palettes on a stage, but we’re taking that same kind of framing and applying it in a nonfiction type of approach. We would also incorporate other references, like the work of Nathan Fielder – this blend of real-life mixed with these fictional contexts. At the same time, we were watching that Jonathan Glazer film [The Zone of Interest]. We were so inspired by how many cameras there were and the scenes that were cut in the middle. So given that the script was very amorphous, we’re meeting after the film goes into production, and we’re changing the story. So our story was kind of evolving and changing. I think we saw Zone of Interest in the middle and Pasqual was like “We gotta get more cameras and set up more angles.” It worked out really well because it created this authentic scenario. We made a strong rule at the beginning of the film that we didn’t want to shoot coverage. It’s kind of a fight against using an over-the-shoulder shot. I feel like when you use that cinematic language, it’s very fiction. But in our context, when you just have one wide shot and then cut to a close-up – the only coverage in the scene – there’s something about that in a way that feels authentic. It kind of pushes this weird boundary between fiction and nonfiction.
HtN: Pasquale, the dynamic between you and Christine in the film is tender, sincere, and funny. What was it like working together to portray your relationship and experiences of approaching parenthood on-screen?
Pasqual Gutierrez: When we started production, I was completely blown away by Christine. I was so impressed by her. I was like “Wow, my wife is a genius.” She’s incredible on camera. She’s so much better than I even expected. She has this character about herself. It’s kind of bubbly and it’s kind of offbeat, but it’s still extremely charismatic that I think she leans into. It’s extremely magnetic. We wanted more scenes with her because we just loved every moment we shot with her. I was completely impressed by her every time we were shooting. At the same time, there were some real-life consequences that this film had beyond the camera in my personal life because I was subjecting my wife to the film. I am subjecting my creative partner to the film. I’m subjecting friends to this more-or-less experimental comedy. It burnt people out. It pushed and pulled at strings at times. The pregnancy was happening in real life and she was wanting rest more. It wasn’t easy. She was getting tired and all the things that come with pregnancy, especially in the later stages in the third trimester and we just kept pressing on. We were shooting and shooting, and that was really challenging for us. We would finish shooting at times and it would be tense between us. I really gotta give her a shoutout. When the film got into Sundance, she was like “Hey, sorry I was giving you a hard time.” But I was like “Thanks for being so patient with us.” It was really a strain on our lives. We had cameras in our house all the time, you know? Ultimately it was a very positive experience because she’s a filmmaker as well, an amazing director. I think she really shines in this film, and when we were editing she was invaluable as I was showing her scenes and stuff because she had incredible feedback.

Christine Yuan and Pasqual Gutierrez in SERIOUS PEOPLE
HtN: So she played a part in shaping the film in some ways?
Pasqual Gutierrez: One hundred percent. Christine has such a strong personality. If she’s coming in, she’s taking charge. I love that about her, and I kind of think that’s the reason Ben wanted to make a film about us. (Laughs) But because she’s so talented, so involved, and so aware of the filmmaking process – when we were going through the film, we talked about giving key members of the film a creative seat at the table to shape and morph the narrative. Christine was one of those key players. We’d finish shooting and we’d be organizing the card footage, doing the DIT and the dailies, and talking about the day. She would be there and she would be giving feedback alongside Teddy and [producer] Ryan Hahn. So she played a really big role in the film.
HtN: I’m curious, how old is your daughter now?
Pasqual Gutierrez: She’s almost one year old! So this film was very accurate to the timeline. Less than a year and we’re here at Sundance just about to premiere.
HtN: Ben, you’ve been living and working as a filmmaker in China for the past number of years. What was it like for you to come back to L.A. and reunite with Pasquale for this project?

Ben Mullinkosson
Ben Mullinkosson: It was really a dream come true because Pasqual and I had ideas for the films we wanted to make together for ten years when we lived together in L.A. I feel like I haven’t had a chance to tell a story that’s meaningful about Los Angeles until Pasqual had this dream and hit me up to come back. So I have been living in Chengdu, China. I plan to stay there and keep making films, but having a chance to tell a story about L.A. was extremely special. I’ve always thought that Pasqual and Christine are so dynamic, funny, and eloquent on camera. I’ve wanted to make a film starring them for a really long time. Pasqual is also a talented writer. He wrote a novel that I really loved.
HtN: Oh for real? What’s the title?
Pasqual Gutierrez: It’s called Flaco. It’s not published yet, but I would like to get it adapted into a TV series.
Ben Mullinkosson: So the opportunity to get to write and just be creative together in a film setting is my favorite form of art. It was really exciting. It’s been really fun for me to represent Los Angeles in this ironic and comedic way that we’ve lived. When we were young filmmakers living in L.A., we were kind of pretentious and talking shit about one another and the whole industry. But we also wanted to make money and push our way into Hollywood. So we have made a sort of commentary about it. The film from start to finish was just over a year, from conception to Sundance, which is crazy. But I feel like this idea has been brewing for over ten years.
HtN: There are a lot of movies out there about solo directors, but it’s rare you would see the working relationship between a directing duo portrayed on screen, like the one we see between Pasquale and Raul. How was it working together in this capacity to portray your working and creative relationship on-screen?
Pasqual Gutierrez: It was a challenge I would say. Me and Raul, we’re so close, kind of inseparable. With fatherhood approaching, we had to almost reckon with the inevitable change. I wasn’t gonna be able to come to the office at any hour and be available to hang out all the time. I was gonna be changing diapers and on a sleep schedule. We sensed this on the horizon. This film is an extrapolation of those anxieties you feel. When I first spoke with Raul about this film, he didn’t want to do it because I think he felt it was too close to the chest of things and trepidations that we were feeling. But he ultimately agreed to be in it and got on board because he knew how important it was for me to make this film. He’s an incredible filmmaker and he’s amazing in the film! I think a lot of that stems from what Ben was saying, it wasn’t actual real events that were occurring, but there were a lot of emotional truths behind those scenes that we were allowed to explore.
HtN: Fun question now! If you each were to look for your own double, what boxes would they have to check – aside from physical similarities?
Pasqual Gutierrez: Confidence. I say it in the film. That’s the first box to check.
HtN: And always say “It’s gonna be a movie!”
[We all burst out laughing.]
Ben Mullinkosson: I think the ability for a doppelgänger to replace you at work is great. There’s a lot of parts of everyone’s job where we would say “Man, it’d be great if I had an assistant to go handle this and that.” I feel like if someone could handle the trickier sides of directing or the more annoying sides of working in the film industry, that would be great.
HtN: What advice do you both have for any creatives out there struggling to balance professional aspirations plus demands in this industry and the obligations in their personal life?
Pasqual Gutierrez: I think now that I’m on the other side of it – I am a father now and my daughter is almost one – my reactions towards the film have changed since I further got into fatherhood. Looking back at this version of myself you see in the film, it was very honest about how I was feeling, especially in terms of my anxiety and wanting to please people. I feel like what’s really important is to set boundaries and never be afraid to be firm and stand on those boundaries. I feel like it’s really important for a work-life balance. Especially if you’re in a creative industry, people are always gonna wanna hear back from you or hop on a Zoom with you at a time you’re supposed to be doing something different like watching a baby or your kids have a soccer game. Just set those boundaries and stand on it. I was always afraid to do that before having a child because it gave me this illusion that I was difficult to work with, I wasn’t malleable or flexible enough for this industry that’s always changing. I wasn’t always available when I wanted to be available and say “yes” to everything. Now I say “no” to a lot of things. And I have absolutely zero regrets about that now because I am prioritizing my family, we’re here at Sundance, and we’re following our truths. We’re developing new ideas and I now feel exponentially more creative and clear-headed since having a child. I think a lot of that is also because I have been unafraid to just be myself, be efficient with myself, and set the time for my family.
Ben Mullinkosson: I mean I don’t have children and I’m not married, but I think what Pasqual just said is really inspiring. You can see in him that he’s very centered and knows his priorities. I do think that in our industry, given that it’s not the most profitable for directors and it takes a long time to get into that place, people can say “Sure, you only have like $20k to shoot this music video and we need all that money for the studio time.” So I’m not gonna take a rate, I’m gonna ask my friend to be my AC on this and borrow his camera. We put a lot of sweat equity in every project that we’re a part of. It can be exhausting mentally and financially. So I think having the clarity of setting boundaries is huge.
– M.J. O’Toole (@mj_otoole93)