A Conversation with the Cast & Crew of NICKEL BOYS

In a year filled with ambitious cinema, RaMell Ross’s adaptation of Colson Whitehead’s Pulitzer Prize-winning novel The Nickel Boys stands as a singular achievement in American filmmaking. Through an audacious technical approach that employs point-of-view cinematography throughout, Ross and his collaborators have created what many are calling a new cinematic language. The film, which marks Ross’s narrative feature debut following his acclaimed documentary Hale County This Morning,This Evening has already garnered significant acclaim including a Golden Globe nomination for Best Drama, with critics and audiences alike celebrating its groundbreaking visual style and emotional depth.

The following conversation brings together the key creative forces behind this remarkable production: leads Ethan Herisse and Brandon Wilson, whose chemistry anchors the film’s intimate perspective; supporting players Fred Hechinger, Hamish Linklater, and Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor, who bring texture and complexity to this haunting story; cinematographer Jomo Fray, whose innovative camera work creates an unprecedented level of immediacy; editor Nicholas Monsour, fresh from his work on Nope, who helped shape the film’s unique rhythm; and composers Alex Somers and Scott Alario, whose score brings both levity and gravity to this powerful narrative. Together, their insights reveal the careful collaborative process behind one of the most significant American films in recent memory.

 BRANDON WILSON (Role of “Turner”) & ETHAN HERISSE (Role of “Elwood”)

Hammer To Nail: Basic question to start but how did you guys get cast in the film and what was that first conversation with Ramell like?

Brandon Wilson: Email, self-tape request, self-tape, Zoom, callback, chemistry read in New Orleans not with Ethan and then a chemistry read in LA with Ethan.

Ethan Herisse: For me, Email, self-tape request, self-tape, Zoom, callback, then a chemistry read in LA with Brandon haha. Very traditional I guess.

BW: Its funny, someone called me out on this the other day because I told them I got the role in a traditional way. They said “You call a self-tape traditional?!”

EH: Haha yeah, but still a traditional route in terms of audition, callback etc.

BW: Right, we were not approached in the street or anything haha.

EH: That initial conversation with RaMell was in New Orleans. We were able to sit down and have ice cream together. We talked about everything besides how the movie was going to be shot. We got to sit and chat and get to know each other a little. I think it was a great way to start to feel comfortable with these people I was going to spend the next few months working with.

HTN: Much of the success of this film stems from how you guys feed off of eachother. It is done in a very unique way though through this POV perspective. What was the preparation and rehearsal process like?

EH: Rehearsal?? We are sitting here talking about Rehearsal?? Hahaha

BW: Yeah there was very little formal rehearsal. We did not talk about the technical aspect of it too much beforehand. We were thrusted into it on day 1. As everyone was exploring this new way of making a film, we got to see how we were going to start exploring together/with RaMell. Before dealing with the lens we would explore everything to make sure that connection was there. We did this so that when the camera started rolling we could more naturally imbue the camera with life. We could speak to it like we were the other person. We were always very close to each other on set so we had each other’s voices and presence.

HTN: Obviously this is an adaptation, did the book inform your performances at all?

 EH: I read the book. It became a part of the prep but it was more just as a fan of Colson. I really appreciated the script that Joselyn and RaMell wrote. It helped me dive into Elwood’s mind a bit more and connect with him. It did not start that way but it ended up being an important part of the preparation.

BW: My influence from the book is more indirect. I have not read it yet. I read the script, met RaMell and Joselyn, and then I did not want to add more words in there to overthink anything. Of course the book influenced everything. Even though I did not read it, I was very informed by the book every step of the way.

HTN: Going further on the preparation, when you first read the script, what was the scene you were most worried about or put the most time into?

EH: I thought a lot about the white house scene and the sweatbox scene. When you read it you are just trying to get connected to the story and characters. There is also a part of you that can’t imagine what it’s going to be like to actually act these things out. Reading those moments was not only devastating to read, but, from the perspective of, “oh wow, I am going to be performing this at some point,” you have to be ready to go into a dark space for these moments. Fortunately, I was not too scared and was willing to let the moment be the moment. Those were the two scenes I clocked early on as moments I would have to dig very deep.

BW: One of those scenes was when Elwood reveals to Turner he had been writing all of this stuff down. I thought a lot about how that one would feel on the set. Something about that revelation in that moment, them being on the streets, that was one I had on my mind.

HTN: When you first screened the film, was it as you imagined based on the script and your time on set? Watching the movie it’s astonishing that it came from a piece of paper. It’s a new cinematic language!

EH: I do not have words to describe everything I was feeling. The first thing that happened was that for the entire screening I was entirely out of my body. I was fully living in this world. When the credits rolled and I saw my name and Brandon’s name I started to cry. I thought, “Wow, that was what we were making the whole time.” I was so overwhelmed by everything that I was feeling alongside the pride to be a part of something that brought about those emotions. I fist pumped after a while of reflecting and sitting with it.

BW: When we filmed it, we had no idea how it was going to feel. The first time I saw it I was disoriented at first and then I was just very pulled into being in the bodies of these boys and seeing through their eyes. By the end of it I felt tired and kinda drained. I was very tender. I saw it by myself. Which was nice because I did not want to talk to anyone. I definitely was not expecting to be affected the way I was.

HTN: I think the moment it set in for me this was a new American masterpiece is when we first see Ethan’s face and that sequence is redone at the lunch table. What was important to both of you at this moment and if you could discuss the anatomy of it? How does this actually work? Is it separate takes?

BW: All those scenes were done as “oners.” We would film it from one person’s perspective from beginning to end. That was lovely. We got to live in the moments so much longer. We would often be switching positions with the camera operator. Whoever was off camera, the operator was taking on the role of their body and eyes, so we would stand close to them to still be present in the moment for the other person.

EH: The camera, the operator and the crew are all so close to us for all of these setups. If you think of it like a pizza, We only see one slice, which is the whole technical world of this, while the audience sees everything else.

HTN: I want to discuss the apology scene where you guys discuss Turner not giving Elwood the letter. A very powerful moment. What was your thinking for this scene?

 EH: It was important for Elwood to show grace in that moment. Grace is one of the things that make you love him. That is something he was raised with. He is struggling with so much at that moment. As he says, “What’s done is done.” All he could do is show Turner grace in that moment and I think that ultimately strengthened Turner’s belief in doing the right thing. In that moment more than ever he is exposed to the cruelty of that place.

FRED HECHINGER (Role of “Harper”)

HTN: Talk about acting with this POV and on film. How did both of these things impact your performance?

Fred Hechinger: It’s so funny because it was written in the script and we all knew that it was going to be filmed that way, and yet, it was one of those things where the story was so exciting, and RaMell is such an inspiring filmmaker I don’t think I fully processed on a practical level how wild that would be. Then we got there and on the first day it was like “Wow I really am going to be looking into this camera.” At the same time it very quickly turned from being a technical thing into a very emotional thing. Jomo Fray our cinematographer would sometimes operate the camera, and then sometimes Brandon Wilson and Ethan Herisse would operate. It became very creative and emotional quickly, while the technical started to slip away with every day.

HTN: Did you engage with the Novel at all? Did it impact your performance?

FH: I love the book so much. It was definitely inspiring. It was a part of the prep period, it was part of conversation around the script. I think you take everything and you throw it into the pot of inspiration and you see what really catches fire on the set.

HTN: You have had a big year being a part of many movies with lots of buzz, what was it about this script that when you read it you knew you had to be a part of it.

FH: RaMell Ross. I saw Hale County, This Morning, This Evening on a big screen and it blew my mind and stuck with me years and years after. I knew I wanted to work with him one day. Also, I loved this novel and I love Colson’s work. RaMell and I met, we started talking and you just know the movies you need to do. I felt like, “please, put me in coach, I really want to be a part of this experience.”

HTN: Nickel Boys and Gladiator 2 are extremely different productions, how does your preparation differ?

FH: I think my preparation is different for every job and experience. It’s always a mystery to me what it would be each time. I think you are always trying to find what is unique for this character, the filmmaker and the community you’re working with. You are trying to find what can only happen this time. That’s what you want to get out of it. I feel full of invention and discovery. There was not a single day that was not invigorating and inspiring on this set. That’s because of how RaMell works and the world that he builds.

AUNJANUE ELLIS-TAYLOR (Role of “Hattie”)

HTN: Obviously the film is done in POV perspective and shot on film, Talk about working within that space. Did it affect your preparation

Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor: It did not honestly. I really could not prepare for this role. I had to just do it. You can kinda prepare with the other person, because you can rehearse a bit with them. But this was very isolating work. It felt like work in solitude.

HTN: As you continue to work in this industry, how often are you pulling from emotions in your life to project onto the screen, more specifically, did you consider your family in this role?

AET: I am not a biological mother. I raise my niece and nephew. I had a grandmother and she had a lot of Hattie in her. All of those women during that time were these unsung heroes. They had to do a lot for a community that really needed it. They did it without any recognition and that was a lot of what I drew from.

 HTN: I think one of the most powerful moments is when you finally visit Elwood at Nickel and have to give the disappointing news about your efforts to bring him home. There’s an immense focus on your hands and it’s a piercing shot staring right at you. What was important to you here?

AET: Try to be honest. Staring right at that camera and being as honest as possible.

HAMISH LINKLATER (Role of “Spencer”)

HTN: This is obviously a very challenging role. What did your preparation look like to play this role, what types of things were you pulling from?

Hamish Linklater: You know, I prepared, I had my voice guy, I loved the book so much, I spent my time with it and then I just had to live with myself during the day. It was really hard and it was weird. It was just such a weird acting experience because usually you think, “Oh I can draw from this within myself.” For this project I rejected that. I thought to myself, “This is not me, I don’t want this to be me.” So then I thought, “Well, I better fucking act then.” It was tough.

HTN: Talk about working while being shot not only in POV but on film, how was it for you operating within this space? Did it take time to adjust? Were you inspired by the world RaMell created?

HL: It was so great because very often you would not know where the camera was. There was no room for any kind of self-consciousness. I really felt like I was living in the space with the other actor across from me. That was totally freeing. The shots are so formal, and RaMell was so on top of it, and yet you feel free as a bird. It is so focused and planned out.

HTN: This role and your pastor role in Midnight Mass felt similar to me, if you’re not pulling from real life, did you pull from work you did on previous projects?

HL: The thing about Midnight Mass is, that vampire thinks he’s doing good. He thinks he’s making the right choices that will help the community and save the woman he loved. I don’t think for a second that this fucker gave a shit about doing good. That was the hard part. I did not want to play him like that. I said to RaMell, “I want to bury him.”

HTN: How does it affect your psyche to be on a set like this for so long playing this role.

HL: I was there for 5 days, and it felt like 5 days too many. I cried every day. At the end of the day though, I would do anything for RaMell Ross, movie or otherwise. He is a genius.

JOMO FRAY (Cinematographer)

HTN: The first sequence I would love to talk about is a flashback where Elwood is being surprised by his Grandma in bed. It’s a short shot but the use of sheets is so impressive to me. How did this moment come to be and what were the difficulties?

Jomo Fray: That moment was about trying to capture that aspect of wonderment as a child. That was actually a difficult scene to shoot. We had our ideas but when we actually got the camera in the space, we realized there were some issues. She felt too close. We tried to prop her up using boxes and lower the bed, but it was really this moment that reminded us that when you are a child it is not that you are short it is that you are small to the rest of the world around you. The way in which adults feel like giants and sheets feel like they can envelop the whole world. Shooting that was so incredible because it made all of us think back to being a child. So much of our memories as a child are about perspective. The main challenge was I had not thought about my relative size as a child in literally decades. There was something that felt very special on set when we were capturing those images. I feel like there was a natural nostalgia that everyone felt.

HTN: Elwood and Turner are sitting together and chatting at Nickel, with the POV switching periodically. Running in a pack, a group of boys then  jumps over them. The camera takes in Turner’s perspective as he reacts,  then sees Elwood watching him. What was the thinking and if you could discuss the anatomy?

JF: That was a really fun and exciting scene. First off, there is an emotional component to this. Why is Turner so traumatized by this action? What is it about the boys jumping over him that feels so triggering to him. That is the question the scene begs. So then it was about creating a set of shots that could pull you into the experience of that. The wonderment from Elwood’s side and the terror from Turner’s. It was a funny challenge where we had to build an off-camera ramp so that the stunt actors could run, go up the ramp, and then launch over me with the camera and clear over my entire body. The actor also had to be next to me. It was a lot of orchestration just like every shot in this film. Everything was meticulously created. I think the movie has a very free-wheeling aspect to it, a very reactive camera language. We tested as much as we could to create those perspectives. It’s all meant to be not just what an image can look like from someone’s perspective but what sight can actually feel like.

HTN:  I would love to ask about the scene where Turner confessed to not giving Elwood the letter. I love the camerawork here, what was essential?

JF: I love that you pull that scene! It was actually the first dialogue scene on the first day. I remember, we had done all the tests but we still did not know 100% if it was going to work. Is this going to be able to maintain a performance? Are the actors going to be able to play to this? Will it look immersive and highly subjective like we planned or would it be uncanny? There was a lot going into that scene. At the last moment, at the last shot. As a filmmaker you can feel when the crew clicks in. It was at this shot that you could feel everyone in the video village start to believe. We had been talking for weeks and weeks about how we were going to do it, but you never really know. That was the moment we all were like, “There might be something here.” I remember when we shot that close up, the way Turner was so collapsed in, it was something that I remember feeling on set, I actually felt for this person. We are looking through POV and somehow I skipped the conceit and to the actual feeling of seeing him through that angle. This was a real breakthrough moment for us.

NICHOLAS MONSOUR (Editor)

HTN: Editing is so essential here, how did you come onto the film and what did the process look like?

Nicholas Monsour: I really canvassed pretty hard to be involved with this. I tried my best to stay in touch with Jeremy Kleiner and Dede Gardner because I am a fan of pretty much everything that they do and the way they do it. At some point I heard rumours about this. Then I heard RaMell and Joselyn would be helming it and I was already such a big fan of their work.  I was relentless in talking to Plan B and my agents to get me in the running. I knew RaMell was a great editor, so he could have done this himself, so I knew I had to convince him a little bit. I think it worked out well because I had a relationship with MGM through work I had done before. In a way MGM probably did not know that I had this art-school experimental video background and RaMell did not necessarily know that either. Working in more traditional genres definitely helped me though. I think all of that was needed for this to work. The editing process looked like a mashup of all the work I had done to this point! At times we were going through hours of footage, not even knowing what kind of shot we were looking for. Then there were moments where things were so character based we had to break it all down in terms of who’s emotional space we were in at any given shot. We would take big stabs, step back, watch it, see how we felt about it and discuss. We would also hand scene’s back and forth to each other. He would go into Premiere and mess around. It was always hard to put into words what we wanted to do so we had a conversation through video. It was a lot of trial and error but always making sure to check in with that very specific feeling we were trying to hit on.

HTN: Did you come in having seen the script first, or did you come in after it was shot?

NM: I read the script when I met with RaMell and Joselyn. I was so confused how you would make that novel into a film and not give so much away or ruin what works so well in the novel. Both the historical and identity aspect of the novel. As soon as I read the script, I was mind blown by how simply those problems were solved. When I met with them I just tried my best to convey enthusiasm. The cliche with editing is that it’s a marathon not a sprint. You cannot just go in super fired up and try everything. You will be disappointed. It’s not going to immediately work. You have to keep trying and trying until you get to a finer and finer decision. RaMell had such a clear process and vision but all the collaborators were able to contribute fresh takes on how to get there which made it really gratifying. We all really got to give something of our own to it.

HTN: So when you saw that script was there any scene that you were particularly intimidated by or most excited to tackle?

NM: The whole thing was very intimidating. I like to be scared by a project as long as it’s not the people that are intimidating. If the project is challenging, that is great. I knew that in order to do this justice, and I do not have experiences of systemic racism, or of brutal physical violence, which the film does not traumatically put the viewer through, but it gives you that feeling, I was going to have to live within that feeling for a long time. It was not scary but it means you cannot phone in anything. You would really not be doing justice to the intense emotional labor that the actors have done and that RaMell has done in writing and envisioning it over and over again. If you are the next link in that chain and you decide you don’t want to go there, it’s not gonna come out of the edit feeling as impactful as it needs to. Being that emotionally present is daunting but ultimately rewarding when you are with a team as respectful about collaboration and the real history we are discussing.

HTN: You’ve edited on larger films like Nope, a similarly filmmaker driven project, however, what is the difference in process there on a blockbuster versus an indie?

NM: I don’t think I have a preference. I think I got into film because I love a huge variety of styles of filmmaking. I have served directors that have had very specific visions and you are basically there to manually do it for them and there are jobs where you are collaborating trying to figure it out. I like all of them. The goal is always to work with people that are really trying to do something either personally or socially relevant and are really giving it their all. It’s a long process and if it’s not filled with passion it’s going to fall flat. I have been very lucky with the teams I have worked with. Drama is always interesting because you do not get that instant feedback of a laugh or a scare, you are going for something else that is harder to spot. You have to be more quiet and meditative about it. Ultimately it’s the same process of trying to help an artist reach their vision and I’m thrilled to do it!

ALEX SOMERS & SCOTT ALARIO  (Composers)

HTN: The score plays such an essential role in driving home the emotions. Did you get started with the script or with the footage? How did that process work?

Alex Somers: We were fortunate enough to have the script before. Scott and I scored RaMell’s last film. He called us up and said he wanted to get the gang back together. When we read the script, obviously it was very heartbreaking and crushing. We came out to the set in New Orleans and hung out during the final week of filming. We started brainstorming and demod a lot of stuff for RaMell. It was very collaborative and we built the world slowly over the course of a year.

HTN: The film takes place in the past mostly.. A very specific location and setting. Was that a crucial aspect to your production?

Scott Alario: Actually not at all. We did not think about that. It never came up from RaMell either. He did not want it to be a period piece. It was more psychological than that. It was about the feeling and immersion. We were excited about that aspect.

AS: Nickel academy is based on a real school that only closed in 2011, so we all wanted everything you heard to not be specific to the past. Scott and I do love old sounding processed music, but we did not really go there for this one.

HTN: Your score can bring levity in times of little hope. Was that something you considered in the process of creating the score?

AS: When we first began, we thought it was going to be really dark. As we moved through, we realized, making music that was really sensitive, and spoke to the inner world of these characters was better. They were finding ways to live in these awful conditions and we wanted to make music with some hope and a sliver of doubt. There was a spectrum and we did not go as dark as we thought we would. Most filmmakers would have had us create a much darker pallet.

SA: It was very natural for us. We have been making music for over 20 years together and this felt like one of those sweet spots. He really let us be us. It’s exciting to hear you perceive the music as having some slight hope.

– Jack Schenker (@YUNGOCUPOTIS)