A Conversation with Edward Berger (CONCLAVE)

October 25, 2024

The new movie Conclave, from German director Edward Berger (All Quiet on the Western Front), tells the surprisingly gripping tale of what happens during a papal conclave three weeks after a pontiff’s death. Adapted from Robert Harris’ eponymous novel and starring a powerhouse cast that includes Ralph Fiennes, John Lithgow, Isabella Rossellini, and Stanley Tucci, among others, the movie takes the viewer on an emotional and psychological roller coaster from start to finish. I had a chance to talk to Berger ahead of the 2024 Middleburg Film Festival (out of which I reviewed the film), and here is that conversation, edited for length and clarity. Berger’s English is perfect, so other than any editing I have done to shorten the interview, his words are his own.

Hammer to Nail: When did you know that you wanted to adapt Robert Harris’ novel for the screen?

Edward Berger: It was a conversation I had with Tessa Ross, the producer; I met her maybe seven years ago. And we decided, “OK, let’s try to find the right film together.” She had sent me a few things which I thought weren’t right or I wasn’t right for them. And then, she called me one day and said, “I’ve got this idea and this book that is optioned.” And I said, “Yeah, who’s going to write it?” And she said, “Peter Straughan.”

And I said, “Oh, Peter Straughan is the best writer in the world.” Because what he does is he creates a wonderful sort of plot, like a page-turner of a story with many twists and turns. But also, there’s always something deeper underneath, an agenda of why we’re making the movie; a soul to the film, like an inner arc. In this case, it’s Ralph’s inner arc of doubt. You know that feeling of being oppressed by doubt and feeling liberated by it. That made me want to make the film, his speech about doubt, basically.

HtN: It’s a great speech. I really liked that moment in the film. So, I haven’t yet read the novel. I’ve read some Robert Harris, but I haven’t read this. I know you changed the main character from Cardinal Lomeli to an Englishman, Cardinal Thomas Lawrence. Without giving away anything, were there any other changes of substance between the book and the film?

EB: You know, a film is a film, and it has to stand on its own, and has to work on its own. And so you’re always going to move away from the novel. What I try to do is preserve the essence of the novel, of what the novelist tried to do and what they were saying. But otherwise, you could just take one scene of the novel and turn that into a movie. Robert Harris is a very good sort of researcher, a very good plotter. He creates great characters, great twists. And so, we were able to get inspiration for a screenplay from his novel. But Peter also took liberties and moved away from it.

HtN: Right. I’m teaching a course on cinematic adaptation right now, and we have these kinds of conversations all the time. Speaking of adaptations, your last film, which I also liked very much, was All Quiet on the Western Front, which is also a literary adaptation. Do you see any thematic similarities between the two films? Because plot-wise, they’re obviously very different.

EB: Well, in a way, both films are about a war. One is a physical war; the other is an intellectual war of minds, a real chess game. What I realized I’m drawn to is really this … again, as Ralph’s arc in this case, this arc of liberation, you could call it. There’s a character who has a big cloud of doubt above his head, and he tries to work through it. What’s his purpose in life? Why is he making these choices? Is he the right person for these proceedings? Should he even be a priest?

And those are the questions that I ask myself when I’m making a film. Should I make this film? Should I even be a filmmaker? You know, all kinds of doubts; I take my power from doubt. It pushes me. And I think both characters, I would say, go through a process of liberation. Felix [in All Quiet on the Western Front] has this sort of enthusiasm, going into the war, and then a feeling that he was betrayed. And slowly, in the end, he gets liberated via death. He finds his peace in death. And equally, Ralph finds his peace when he opens the window and lets the air back into his life … air and light.

HtN: That’s a fascinating way to describe the two films. And of course, you have that final moment at the end where that’s what the character does. Now, you have this amazing cast. I won’t list everyone who is in the film, but they’re great. You also have a very important character whose first film this is, and that’s Carlos Diehz. How did you find him? He has a small, but ever-so-important role.

EB: We looked the world over. We looked in Asia. We looked in South America, Central America. We wanted him to be from a country that is usually not on the forefront of the discussion. Basically, someone from a so-called, not the first world, but like a different world. An outsider, basically, an outsider coming in. And so, we looked in all those countries. Eventually, we found him in Canada.

We also looked in America, because America has a lot of immigrants and actors, so that felt like a good place to look. But we found him in Vancouver. He’d gone there from Mexico, and we found him. First of all, I wanted someone whom we don’t know, to surprise us and to surprise all the cardinals that are there because he’s sort of a foreigner coming in, and they all go like, “What’s he doing here?” You know?

And he surprises all of them, and catches them on the wrong foot. And then he has a speech in the end where he reveals his path in life, his history, and that was a very difficult speech to deliver and that’s a very difficult speech to ring true. And I needed to be able to look into that person’s eyes and believe that this was part of his history, and Carlos brought that. And there’s no one else in the world that I met who had that, and Carlos did.

HtN: I thought he was really strong. And I was surprised to see that this was his first film. But plenty of people in your movie are veteran actors, including Isabella Rossellini. I want to ask you about the scene where she gives her big speech. My favorite part of that is when she then delivers this little curtsy at the end, having given this speech. It’s a perfect moment. How did you work with her for that scene and particularly that moment of the little curtsy?

EB: In the script, Sister Agnes stands in the corner and watches. And that could theoretically sound like, “OK, you show her in the background.” But for us, it was really important to accompany her all the time. Whenever she was in the scene, she basically needed a close-up. Actually, one from the front and one from behind to sort of show her ears and what she’s hearing, and then her reaction. And so, we always did that to make sure that we’re with her. If we’re not with Ralph, we kind of needed to be with her. And then, that speech really pays off.

How to prepare? It’s talking about it beforehand. So that she knows what to do before, not on the day. And then, she just does it. And then you just say, “All right.” And then you just have to decide where to put the camera to capture it. Maybe do one that way, then you go a bit faster, a bit slower, a bit louder, a bit more subtle, a bit quieter. You just do variations until you have everything you need.

And the curtsy is really something where we thought, how do we put a final exclamation mark, or maybe not an exclamation mark, a question mark or little dot to her delivery? We sort of thought like, “Well, she wouldn’t bow, she wouldn’t smile, she wouldn’t nod.” And we thought like a curtsy because that’s her role in the church and so it’s in her. And I think Isabella also knew it from the nuns. She went to nun school in Rome. So it’s kind of born from her history, as well.

HtN: Your final shot is this relatively innocuous shot of these nuns leaving the building, and then you just cut to black. What made you want that to be your final shot?

EB: I saw a photograph that inspired me, of three nuns in white walking through Rome. And I thought, “That’s the final shot.” Because Ralph is locked in, the movie is dark, he’s locked in for two hours. There’s only fluorescent light. And he goes through this process. And suddenly, the shutters open, light comes back in, he opens the window, he lets air back in, life back in. He hears female laughter.

And the movie is essentially about the oldest patriarchy in the world. And we do put a question mark on it. There’s a little crack in those proceedings, in that patriarchy. And a little bit of something different shines through it. And to me, those three women sort of laughing, smiling, and walking in white symbolized the best of what could come in the future, possibly.

HtN: Excellent. Thank you for talking to me!

EB: Thank you!

– Christopher Llewellyn Reed (@ChrisReedFilm)

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