A Conversation with Mike Leigh (HARD TRUTHS)

In a career spanning over five decades, Mike Leigh has established himself as one of Britain’s most distinctive filmmakers, crafting intimate portraits of working-class life through his unique improvisational process. From the raw intensity of Naked to the period grandeur of Mr. Turner, from the family revelations of Secrets & Lies to the buoyant optimism of Happy-Go-Lucky, Leigh’s films have consistently found profound humanity in the everyday, earning him seven Oscar nominations and countless international accolades along the way.

His latest film, Hard Truths, marks a powerful return to contemporary London, featuring a towering performance from Marianne Jean-Baptiste as Pansy, a woman whose overwhelming anxiety and hostility have corroded her family relationships. Jean-Baptiste, reuniting with Leigh nearly 30 years after her Oscar-nominated role in Secrets & Lies, brings devastating complexity to Pansy, a character whose obsessive behaviors and rage mask deeper wounds. The film, which premiered at the 2024 Toronto International Film Festival to critical acclaim, demonstrates that at 80, Leigh remains a master at excavating the painful, funny, and profound truths of human behavior.

Hammer To Nail: Hard Truths seems to explore similar territory to Happy-Go-Lucky but from the opposite emotional spectrum. Was this parallel intentional or something you discovered during your development process?

 Mike Leigh: Neither. It’s something I never thought of before or during. It’s only something that critics have pointed out to me! I do not relate the films to each other at all. It is a total red herring. I don’t see Poppy as the flip side of Pansy or vice versa. They are two quite different types of characters.

HTN: A lot of people have been pointing it out so wanted your take on it! You’ve reunited with Marianne Jean-Baptiste after Secrets & Lies. How did the experience of building a character with her differ this time, nearly 30 years later?

Mike Leigh: Technically it did not! We did exactly the same thing we did 30 years ago. The only real difference is time. I am 30 years older and so is she! We have new life experiences. In terms of the mechanics of doing it, we did on this film what we did then and even before that on a stage play in London.

HTN: Your films often examine the dynamics within British working-class families. With Pansy’s character, you’re exploring mental health and isolation in this context. What drew you to tackle these particular themes?

ML: I did not decide that those would be the themes. That is not what happens or happened. We started to investigate these characters, create them and put them together and it slowly grows. Of course, what happens is, as I am in the process of figuring out what the film is, I realize I am tapping into all kinds of preoccupations and experiences. That investigation led to opening up this area of behavior and family dynamic.

HTN: Could you talk about the development process with David Webber and Tuwaine Barrett in creating their characters’ silent responses to Pansy’s behavior? How did you work with them to build that specific kind of restrained reaction?

Marianne Jean-Baptiste in HARD TRUTHS

ML: It’s all about the kind of character they are. We were drawing from sources such as people they knew! By doing a massive amount of discussion and building of their backgrounds, There begins to be an ease for improvisation, very detailed, in depth mannerisms done in real time. It organically grows. As this woman harangues and bullies them, they deal with it in their own way.

HTN: Speaking of that process, it’s famous for its extensive character development through improvisation. What surprising directions emerged during rehearsals that significantly shaped the film?

ML: There always are! That is the whole point of doing it. There is input from me, then I input what’s going on in myself, and there’s tons of interactions and it’s my job to distill, organize, dramatize and give it cinematic form! There are things that happen in the film that were such a shock when they came out. There are several moments in the back end of the film, looking at the family gathering for Mother’s Day, where Pansy suddenly behaves in a very extraordinary way. It was not something I could sit in a room and script. I am talking about the moment where she was crying and laughing. Nothing is more surprising than that. It came organically out of this investigation. That type of thing happens all the time though. The way to understand what I do, is to think about how people paint pictures, write novels, write plays, write poetry, make sculptures, make music, etc. It’s all in that creative process.

HTN: Could you talk about the role of the home space in this film? Pansy’s house becomes almost like a hotel room in its sterility.

ML: That is how it would be. This is a woman obsessed with hygiene. She is paranoid about flowers, birds, foxes, really anything that breathes or can make dirt. She is constantly cleaning. When we collaborated with Suzie Davies, the production designer, who has done Barbie and Conclave so that speaks to how versatile she is, it became very clear that the home would be sterile. She does not want stuff. She does not want to have to clean a lot of stuff. Marianne suggested the white carpet and Suzie refuted it by saying “It would get dirty!” Marianne responded, “Not in Pansy’s house it wouldn’t get dirty.” She would clean it all the time! We designed the room as such because it is the truthful environment! Conversely, when you go to Chantelle’s (Michele Austin) apartment with her daughters, it’s full of life, flowers, plants and all kinds of stuff! It’s a more lovely environment.

HTN: When Pansy runs out of the store embarrassed that the manager might win this argument, I loved this sequence, what was your thinking?

ML: We grew that sequence like we always do. This was all improvisation and I give credit to these extremely talented actors. Alice Bailey Johnson gives a terrific performance. We put the scene together that day. As it came out that she wanted to speak with the manager, we realized that she does not want that confrontation so she pisses off! It’s as simple as that really.

HTN: Straightforward as it might be, it is a very powerful moment.

ML: Yeah! That is the thing. Yes, the contribution of Alice Bailey Johnson as the young woman is brilliant, however, The main thing that we bring to this scene is the depth we have discovered within Pansy. The three dimensional totality of who she is. Her preoccupation, obsessions, pain, aggravation and aggressiveness comes with us into this sequence. That’s what makes it effective.

HTN: There’s a charged scene of Pansy at the dentist. What made you choose that specific situation to explore her character?

A still from HARD TRUTHS

 ML: When I was auditioning actors, way back before the pandemic, a very talented actor came in and said, “By the way, of course I am an actor, however, I am also a dentist!” I thought to myself, “Hmm…That’s interesting!” She’s brilliant in the film. She could do all the things she had to do very naturally. I had the notion that she should go to the doctor as well. That doctor gives a great performance. Another really talented young actor I have worked with a few times. She is very clever.

Pansy is a hypochondriac. Profoundly. The idea of going to the doctor or the dentist to get things checked out was interesting. Of course she gives the dentist and the doctor a hard time. She does not learn anything, she is too busy being aggressive.

HTN: I would love to discuss this scene where they visit the grave. Another extremely powerful moment. How did it come to be?

ML: It is inevitable. It was necessary and important to explain the relationship with her now dead mother Pearl. Although an actress never played her, we talked her into existence. She was very much so crucial to the dynamic between the three of them. It is a convention to go to your mothers grave on mothers day, so that seemed like a natural thing to do. Although people have said about this film, wrongly, that it offers no explanation or resolution, that may be true on one level, however, it is not entirely true. In dramatic terms, when you get to that scene, you learn quite a lot and you see Pansy reveal something about herself that up until that point she has not! That was its function. That is the point of its place in the film.

What we had to do was build the scene and then once we got there we had to realize it, as always. The reason why at the end of that scene there is a bikers funeral is because my son, who is also a filmmaker, made a movie, which has not been released in the states, called Sweet Sue. It’s about a middle aged woman who goes to the funeral of a bilker and strikes up a relationship that winds up failing. So as an homage to my son, I put the funeral at the end of the scene, and I think it kinda works actually!

HTN: There are some particularly powerful close-ups near the end of the film. How do you decide when to employ these more formal cinematic moments within your naturalistic style?

ML: We use the camera to serve what’s going on. I reject the premise of this question. I do not see a normal naturalistic style. Will all due respect, I think that’s bullshit really. Throughout this film, or any film of mine, the camera does what it needs to do, Close or not as the case may be. That’s a question that does not deserve an answer.

HTN: Understood. The family reunion scene that creates so much tension just from Pansy’s presence. How did you build and choreograph that sequence?

ML: This is one of those things that I do not explain and I usually allow the audience to ponder. Looking particularly at the moment where Curtley (David Webber) does not respond, he clearly has something going on with his mother he does not want to talk about. You realize at that moment that he has other relationship issues, it’s not just with Pansy.

Looking at the scene generally, it’s another inevitable moment. Coming into this scene we had done the work. For years we had prepared and discussed. We went to the apartment and did improvisations and then distilled it down through rehearsal to something very precise. I don’t think there is anything esoteric to explain. They get together to celebrate and of course that’s not what is really going to happen. This sequence is merely a continuation of this bubble which has already burst in the cemetery. Really the cemetery scene and the reunion in the apartment are one big sequence. Such as it is, the condition Pansy is in from the cemetery to the end of the film remains the same.

HTN: The line that stood out to me and many other viewers of the film was Chantelle (Michele Austin) saying to Pansy, “I don’t understand you, but I love you.” Can you discuss how that came to be?

ML: Tell me you have not experienced that. She finds her very difficult, confusing and frustrating but she loves her! She is her sister! Audiences can resonate with that because they know that feeling.

 – Jack Schenker (@YUNGOCUPOTIS) 

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