So Yong Kim didn’t pick up a video camera with the intention of becoming a narrative filmmaker. At the time, she was more interested in using a camera to create experimental visual backdrops for her performance art. Yet with the support of her husband Bradley Rust Gray (Salt, The Exploding Girl), she found herself gravitating toward narrative cinema. The resulting features, In Between Days and Treeless Mountain, are not mere works-in-training but stand firmly as highly successful, deeply personal examples of poetic realism. While In Between Days probes the difficulties of a Korean teenager adjusting to life in a cold, lonely Canada, Treeless Mountain returns to childhood to tell the story of two young sisters in Korea whose mother leaves them behind and forces them to adjust to life without her. This conversation happened on the verge of the official theatrical release of Treeless Mountain (read the Hammer to Nail review if you haven’t already), which was picked up for distribution by Oscilloscope Pictures. Visit www.soandbrad.com for more information.

H2N: When did you decide that you wanted to be a filmmaker? Was it very early on or did you have a later awakening?

SYK: For me it was more gradual and kind of seamless. I didn’t really decide, “Hey, I’m gonna be a filmmaker,” or anything. I was making experimental shorts and videos. And then I worked on Brad’s film (Salt) as a producer/cook/boom operator. And that demystified this whole narrative filmmaking thing for me. So I was like, “Well, I could shoot this on video or tell a story.” But when I made In Between Days, my expectation of that film was so low. I felt like I wrote a script. Okay. Then we shot a bunch of footage and sat down to edit it. And I was totally open to it being a short film or experimental film or whatever I wanted it to be. Because there was no pressure from Brad or anybody else saying, “Hey, you have to tell this story in 80-something minutes and it has to go to this festival.” So I just made that film for myself really so that I could learn how to make a film and just segued into narrative filmmaking.

H2N: When you started out as an experimental filmmaker, what did that consist of?

SYK: I went to Chicago Art Institute and I studied painting in undergrad and then I went into performance and installations. And when I was doing those things I wanted to incorporate film and video as part of the backdrop. Projection, stuff like that. It was kind of a gradual path into filmmaking. I still don’t really say I’m a filmmaker, though. (both laugh)

H2N: Calling yourself anything is strange.

SYK: Someone was asking me at the airport in Argentina what I did and I said, “Oh, I tried to make some films.” (H2N laughs) That’s what it feels like to me! That feels like a realistic thing, to say, “I try.” My mother always says, “Ah, make a better one next time. Try better next time.”

H2N: So, you’re saying for In Between Days it started organically. Was there a tight script or did it unfold as you were shooting? Or did it all happen as late as in post-production? Was that when those pretty diary entries were conceived?

SYK: Those diary entries were not in the script. I just shot a bunch of stuff in the mornings when she was waking up. And then I had her talk about her dreams and things like that. So we collected a lot of footage. I think we had about 60 hours or more of clips. And then editing was about nine months of putting the scenes together. But that’s not really a good ratio—like a 55-1 ratio! It’s not very efficient filmmaking but it was a good process to go through, to learn how to put scenes together. Because I didn’t know how to edit really.

H2N: Was there a moment when things came into focus and you knew you had a feature?

SYK: I think at some point I showed a cut to Brad and Brad was like, “Oh, I think you could make this into a film.” (both laugh) “I think you might have a feature.” Because I was editing and editing for a long time and I needed someone. Brad was supervising the edits, he would look at some scenes that I was having problems cutting and he’d say, “Whoa! You can’t put those two shots together.” I’m like, “Oh, really? Is that why I’m having a problem with this scene?!” And usually when that happened with a scene I’d have to toss it out because I didn’t have enough coverage or something. But I didn’t know that. I would just be working on one scene for like a month and I couldn’t figure it out.

H2N: So you were doing the physical editing as well? Did you have to learn the software or had that been part of your school education?

SYK: I used to use (Adobe) Premiere a long time ago. And then when I was doing experimental films I would cut on a Steenbeck. So I knew the basics of editing. But when I was putting In Between Days together, it’s much more narrative. So it’s not just about splicing images together. It becomes telling a story within a scene, and not crossing the eye line, and all that stuff.

H2N: How about for Treeless Mountain? There is a definite kinship between the films yet they are still quite different. Had you gained confidence from In Between Days and thought that you wanted to craft something with a more fully written script?

SYK: Yeah. I think Treeless has more story and a more straightforward structure. I started to write scenes and moments in Treeless in 2003, so even before I shot In Between Days. But for me Treeless was so much bigger. I couldn’t even fathom in 2003 that I was going to make it into a film. It’s about kids, it had to be in Korea, all these things, and I didn’t have any experience with making a film at that point. So I started writing bits and pieces but it didn’t really come together until 2006 as a real project that I could shoot in Korea and try to do a decent job. Because at that time In Between Days came out so I felt a little bit more confident at that point.

H2N: And of course it was helpful to have the success of In Between Days in getting Treeless made.

SYK: Definitely. Because when you’re making small independent art-house films, anything that you can get recognition for definitely helps with your next project. It’s not like you’re knocking on studio doors. It’s more like you’re begging for little crumbs! It was all an additive process, so whatever positive review we got on In Between Days it could help Treeless be in the Sundance Lab. From the Sundance Lab we got recommended to go to Cannes, where they set up meetings for you to get a sales company or someone to get interested in your project. From that, we had this really interesting French producer going, “I’ll give you 50,000 Euros.” And then from there we added two or three more people who were willing to give us some money to shoot on video. And then, luckily, our producers Jay (Van Hoy) and Lars (Knudsen) brought in these investors from New York that were like, “We’ll give you the entire amount but shoot it on film.”

H2N: Man, that’s a terrible phone call to get!

SYK: I know, isn’t that crazy?! So it’s kind of like a miracle that it happened and it’s really fortunate for the film that it happened in 2007 and not now. Because it’s nearly impossible for that to happen now.

H2N: You shot Super-16 and then took it to print?

SYK: Mm-hmm.

H2N: How was that experience versus In Between Days? Was it more daunting to you? Was there an added feeling of when the camera rolls it rolls? Especially with this particular material.

SYK: Yes. But I think it was more daunting for our producers. I warned them before. I said, “You know, I’m just gonna let the camera roll.” So a lot of the budget went into film stock and film processing. I mean, they’re little kids, they’re non-actors. So, they were prepared from the beginning but I don’t think they realized how much film we were gonna shoot. I tried not to think about that!

H2N: I guess we should get to that now. These performances are just so extraordinary. I’ve read a lot of mentions of Ponette and Nobody Knows, but I really feel like in Treeless the performances felt un-manipulated, in the sense of it not feeling like you were simply cutting around their non-performances. How did you work with the girls? Was it really just shooting a lot? Were you right next to the camera getting different reactions and readings? At any point were you putting them into a character’s head or were you just trying to get them to be natural within themselves?

SYK: I was just trying to get them to be themselves and not worry about the camera or the crew or even me, you know. But when we were shooting I was sitting right next to them, so they could feel like I was with them rather than with the crew. I mean, I read all their lines, so they’re repeating the lines that I’m telling them to say. But I really have to say, as much as people ask, “How did you direct them or not direct them?” I think a lot of that came from casting. Because it was really about the chemistry between the two girls; how they interact together or how they react to each other. So if there was no chemistry between them I think no matter how much I tried to manipulate them it wouldn’t come through in the scene. Manipulation, I have to say, was very minimal. I had to push them very little to go where they needed to go. They’re so instinctual anyway, if there was a situation where the little girl felt like the older girl got more cookie than her, then she would go and take the cookie from the older girl and the older girl would want to shove her, push her. It was so natural for them, because they felt like they could be that at ease with each other. So I have to say most of that comes from casting.

H2N: I think it was Altman who said something to the effect of “80% of directing is casting.”

SYK: And 20% is just creating a situation where they can be themselves. And just a little nudge here, a little push there, and they go.

H2N: You said that you had lines you were feeding them, but were you adapting and changing things as you shot?

SYK: Constantly. The starting point was the script and then after that it’s adding more or taking stuff out. Sometimes the lines I wrote were completely inappropriate or wrong but something else would pop in my head. When she’s coloring the eye of the piggy, there was no line in the script, but I told her to ask the piggy if she felt better and she did. Because that’s her personality. She really believes it because she’s only five. She has that connection.

H2N: How did you work with your cinematographer (Anne Misawa) to get that feeling across? In both your films, but in this one especially, the camera and the atmosphere make you see and feel the world through these little girls’ eyes. It’s not like we’re objectively watching them, we’re actually feeling that childlike innocence through the cinematography.

SYK: Anne is also a very instinctual person and she’s very creative. I think the only thing we really talked about from the beginning is I wanted to make sure that the camera was always on the eye level of the children, in every single shot and take. And then another thing is that we always did close-ups first. All the scenes, when we started, made sure we got the coverage in the close-ups. And then if we had time we’d do the wide shots. So she and I were pretty much in the same boat. She’s incredibly good with finding the frame. I think certain DPs are concerned about the framing, if they’re getting it right. But whenever she set up I felt really comfortable. I had to do a very little amount of adjusting. And she was fine with not having marks. It came from her confidence in knowing where she could take the camera. It was a really great collaboration.

H2N: Had you worked together before?

SYK: She shot Brad’s first film, Salt, in Iceland, so I knew how she worked with him, and the three of us worked very closely together on Salt. I felt completely comfortable having her come out. And she came out like two days before we started shooting.

H2N: Wow.

SYK: Yeah. She’d never seen any of the locations before. I think the day before we started shooting the farm scenes we went for a drive out there to let her know which scene was gonna take place in which area. But everything else, no, she wasn’t nervous about that and I wasn’t nervous, so it was really great.

H2N: And how about the breathy, wide landscape shots that almost feel like chapter breaks? Were they always conceived?

SYK: It’s kind of weird. I didn’t want to do those wide shots, because I thought that would reference In Between Days too much. But I think when I went to Korea and we started shooting in Seoul, I thought, “Well, maybe I might need to use this.” So, after we’d wrap, we’d shoot some landscapes. When we were in Seoul, we’d get the buildings and highways and then it continued after that. But that wasn’t in the script.

H2N: I think they’re helpful, though, in addition to being beautiful. They give you some breathing space, because so much of the film is in extreme close-up, and sometimes that can be jarring but here it gives viewers the time to reflect more.

SYK: I thought so when I was editing! I was like, “I need something here!”

H2N: And you edited this one too?

SYK: Yeah. I did the first pass and then I got to a point where I was oversaturated with the material. And then I handed the assembly over to Brad and he could take out the fat that I couldn’t take out because I was too attached to it. When I handed it over to Brad there were too many cute scenes and he cut some out but he left some in that I thought he would cut out.

H2N: How does it work with you guys as a husband-and-wife team? I know you switch hats and have different labels. Do you actually switch roles dramatically or is it less delineated than that and you’re just helping each otherto realize each other’s vision?

SYK: I think we help each other to realize each other’s vision. But if I’m producing, I support what he says. And he does the same for me. I want him to go for whatever he’s trying for, so I don’t interfere with creative stuff. Unless he asks me! Then we give each other our thoughts or whatever. For The Exploding Girl, I did the first pass on the footage, and then he came in and did the final editing. And then for Treeless I did the first pass and he did the final pass. When we’re editing, that’s more collaborative, I think, than working for each other. Editing is when we bounce ideas off of each other. It’s different than directing because we both feel that in directing there should only be one bus driver. No matter if the bus is gonna crash or run the red light or whatever. You can’t have two people driving a single bus. That’s the guiding rule: the final decision is always with the director.

H2N: I’d like to talk a little bit about parenthood. You had a baby right before Treeless Mountain, right?

SYK: Yeah.

H2N: Making a movie is its own grueling and exhausting birthing process! How did the actual birthing process inform the production? Did you ever think of abandoning the film out of pressure or overload?

SYK: No. It’s so funny. A lot of people thought when I got pregnant, right after In Between Days, “Oh, she’s not gonna make another film.”

H2N: “I guess that means she’s retired!”

SYK: At least for three years, until the kid goes off to school! It’s funny, because after I had Sky I had this really strong urge that if I didn’t make Treeless then, I was never gonna make it. I don’t know why, but it just felt like that was the moment that I had to follow through. I think certain projects are like this. Certain projects are like, “Okay, now I need to shelve this and come back to it later.” But Treeless felt like now or never.

H2N: One last question. The indie film industry is in a pretty crazy state right now. Are you optimistic or pessimistic? How do you feel?

SYK: I’m cautiously optimistic. Optimistic because I think there are some great films coming out right now by young filmmakers: Ramin (Bahrani, Goodye Solo), Wendy and Lucy by Kelly (Reichardt), Ryan and Anna (Fleck and Boden, Sugar), Lee Isaac Chung has a new film.

H2N: Does he?! Oh man. I am a big Munyurangabo fan.

SYK: Me too! I don’t know, it’s just a really exciting time. I was telling somebody this earlier that it used to be that Brad and I would be like, “U.S. filmmakers: Jim Jarmusch, David Lynch, Gus Van Sant.” That’s what people thought of about (independent) film for a long time. But now, it’s an exciting moment. There are a lot of young filmmakers.

H2N: I’d like to think that great work will continue to get done and people will find a way to make it happen.

SYK: I think that’s what we like to believe. At some point you have to have faith, so that’s what we’re going by.

H2N: Let’s end on faith!

— Michael Tully

Tags: Anna Boden, Anne Misawa, Bradley Rust Gray, Cannes, Chicago Art Institute, Goodbye Solo, In Between Days, Jay Van Hoy, Kelly Reichardt, Lars Knudsen, Ramin Bahrani, Ryan Fleck, Salt, So Yong Kim, Sugar, Sundance Lab, The Exploding Girl, Treeless Mountain, Wendy and Lucy